Thursday, September 24, 2009

Robin Pelka: have a dance for me

Our friend Robin Pelka passed away this past Saturday after her battle with brain cancer. She sent this open letter to her email list late last year, in hopes that it might be published or at least read. For whatever reason, it never made it into the pages of my magazine. But after hearing the news today, I searched through my inbox for a note from her. She had occasionally sent me (and I'm sure many others) missives about fighting her disease with humor and grit. Even though we weren't close friends, we knew each other from the music industry. She was a beautiful person and I was sad to hear she'd left us. In her absence, I hope her words resonate. Rest in peace, Robin.

Raymond Leon Roker, September 24, 2009



November 23, 2008


Cancer, Cancer, Cancer

Fear is the topic here, along with the cancer. They have been associated and will be for quite some time. This is not an assumption on the whole. Fear is put into our faces on a daily. It all happens; a car crash, tornado, terrorism, viruses. If it's not one, it's the other. Life is short, embrace it. You must train yourself to be safe and healthy but try not to have many fears.

Cancer, the word you'll hear out of my mouth at a constant. It hasn't left me. Well, the tumor inside the brain has left, except for a few remnant cells being watched every so often. I also carry many post surgical, post cancer, post chemo, chronic issues, the list goes on.

Fortunately every morning I wake up and say I am lucky. Many do not understand how I can believe so. I count every minute of my life and every bit of change. There is no fear any longer in this person. If there was, there would be less survivors of all cancers.

After the brain cancer, like lots of people, I started going to a support group. It was always a word said in quiet; As if you were saying a nasty swear word. I met an older, very religious, high school teacher. She did not tell her students when she had breast cancer. After all of her treatment, a few years later, a new cancer arrived. The teacher's decision was not to treat it. My jaw dropped and tears broke. Did she not love herself? Did she not love her students? I did not follow any longer. This was a person you could not understand.

During the chemo treatment, there was a support group I tried to be a part of to lift my spirits. Unfortunately, the results were not positive. One woman's story truly made me look like sunshine. The mother of hers, had lung cancer. The parents decided not to tell the daughters until one month prior to her passing. The daughters both had sadness and anger towards the decision. One had the genetic test and found a tumor in her ovary; while she was pregnant with twins. Her other son had and she also taught in a school part time for these types. As the cancer was removed, the birth of the twins came clean. She then developed more tumors throughout her torso. "My husband was there for me and then his ex-wife and two sons, lost their home and had to also move into our situation." The woman kept going and not sounding any lighter. I can continue, but there are many stories I've heard which can smack you in the face just as this one.

Don't need this Yes, cancer causes pain. Non stop pain for some people may occur. If you have children, you as a young or not as young adult, and elders, can all be hit. It's a virus. Look it up please. **(As per Wikipedia; Cancer is a group of HYPERLINK "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disease" \o "Disease" diseases in which HYPERLINK "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_%28biology%29" \o "Cell (biology)" cells are aggressive (grow and HYPERLINK "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_division" \o "Cell division" divide without respect to normal limits), invasive (invade and destroy adjacent tissues), and/or HYPERLINK "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metastatic" \o "Metastatic" metastatic), spread to other locations in the body. Therefore, a virus can trigger any point of the body. You can be the healthiest of all and still find a tumor. The solutions doctors have now are helpful; Surgery, radiation, chemotherapy, pills, and more. Every time my mother asks a doctor "Why Robin?" She is just not lucky.

Be Aware, have no fear, love your life and be aware of all things around you. I'm no doctor, I'm no celebrity, all I am is a person just like you.

Come back to the group.

**



--

Robin Pelka

Founder

Have A Dance For Me (HADFM.org)

Friday, August 14, 2009

The most epic health care debate on Facebook ever. At least until tomorrow.


This is an epic thread spawned from a status update by my friend George. To me, George is a devout conservative and would like nothing more than to see Obama's plans fail. And he has a few friends that share his perspective (Paul, Frank).

As the health care portion of this conversation heated up, I jumped in with my two cents. Several days later we had reached over 100 comments. Read and enjoy the debate. In all seriousness, it's a very worthwhile discussion, even though it easily gets heated (sorry, guys). And, of course, feel free to drop your thoughts in the comments section. Or just see us on Facebook.

George Bennitez
REUTERS: Obamas administrations in KAOS. It seem the campaign Obama ran for president was better executed then his current job as the president of the United States. There is a sense of buyers remorse with in his party and a growing realization that he may not be up to the challenge given his resume.. The media support that carried him to the white house has begun to turn on his lack of results...

August 6 at 9:39pm
Paul Davidson
Paul Davidson
was there any doubt he wasn't up to the challenge? You knew right from the start it was amateur hour... just look at all the extreme left wing career politicians he appointed after saying he was all about change.
August 6 at 10:26pm
Frank C Deejay
Frank C Deejay
Paul...you get it my friend...the country is more divided than ever but the mainstream media has too much crow to eat...they will justify & indemnify their investment in this failure his whole term...shame on the politically affirmative actioned media for their continued brainwashing of the common folk who depend on them for information.
August 6 at 11:52pm
Giles Styles
Giles Styles
jesus the guy has been in office 8 months. let history be the judge of bush but hang the black guy after 8 months??
August 7 at 1:16am
Giles Styles
Giles Styles
there's no sense of buyer's remorse and his approval ratings are still way higher than the last turd in office. i'm just glad we don't have a wacko pandering to the religious right any more. and frank - wasn't the entire M.O. of the last administration to "brainwash the common folk?"
August 7 at 1:18am
Giles Styles
Giles Styles
does it bother you to have a president who is articulate? do you have to keep a thesaurus handy when he speaks?
August 7 at 1:19am
George Bennitez
George Bennitez
Giles I don't dislike him as a person and I don't think being a good TelePrompTer reader should be something to be happy about. Yes he is articulate but being articulate doesn't mean you know what your doing the honest truth about Obama is that becaise if his lack of experience he's sorrounded himself with unqualified personal and he owes a lot of... Read More
August 7 at 8:05am
George Bennitez
George Bennitez
And he will raise taxes again on the middle class, mark my words giles.
August 7 at 8:09am
Paul Davidson
Paul Davidson
Thats right Giles...immmediatey bring out the race card!! typical response when you have no real argument.
As far as history.... history has proven time and time again that socialism doesn't work. We don't need to wait till 'O' tries again to know this.
Frank is right, the media actively promoted this guy to be president and now they have to protect their investment. You won't hear any critiscim from them no matter how much his policies will you hurt you.
Obamas approval ratings are lower than Bushs at the same period of their presidencies. His numbers are dropping everyday.
I agree tho, I do see the upside of not having a 'wacko pandering to the religious right'. However replacing him with a radical socialist pandering to the extreme left is hardly the answer.
August 7 at 8:10am
Giles Styles
Giles Styles
were you against the massive government spending by the last administration to kill brown people in the middle east? and do you really think the last guy was qualified to be president? he couldn't even run a major league team. he ditched out on his service to his country, got C's through yale while being a cokehead and alcoholic, etc. george you sound like fox news. blind allegiance to the party of the religious right and parroting republican talking points against obama/dems. i'm not the biggest fan of obama ever, but i'm not dumb enough to judge him on his performance after 8 months. i do, however, think W was an absolute moron and one of the worst presidents of all time and i think anyone who supported him needs their head checked.
August 7 at 8:12am
Paul Davidson
Paul Davidson
wooah, straight in with the race card again!!!! Thats a little too easy again.
You might want to try to hang onto that one and only use it when you really get backed into a corner!!!
August 7 at 8:14am
Giles Styles
Giles Styles
Paul - socialised medicine works VERY well in europe. our healthcare system currently is #37 in the world. if we could have the heathcare system that a country like sweden has i would be very happy. anyone who tells you socialized health care doesn't work is either uninformed or hasn't had experience with it. i am a citizen of the EU and i can tell you the heathcare in europe is far superior to ours.
August 7 at 8:15am
Paul Davidson
Paul Davidson
George, I love whenever we bring up anything about 'O' his blind followers immediately go "...er, Bush....."???
Wasn't the conversation about 'O'?
August 7 at 8:16am
Giles Styles
Giles Styles
Blind follower? Maybe you should take off your blinders and read what I already wrote. I'm not his biggest fan, I just believe in giving him a chance. And I'm bringing up W because George supported him, thus making it relevant to this conversation. You come from the Bill O'Reilly school of discussion?
August 7 at 8:18am
Paul Davidson
Paul Davidson
With all due resect Giles, you're an idiot....
Sweden has a tiny population, about 9 million and is far easier to control than this country of over 300 million without counting illegals pouring in.
I'm from the UK, the NHS is horrible. You have an average wait of 2 years for non emergency surgery. There is no elective surgery unless you pay yourself.
Cancer rates of death for all types are higher. life exepectancy is lower.
Most older people are living in pain and suffering because it is not worth the expense of treating them when they are going to die soon anyway.
Sure, if you get a boo boo and need a band aid you can walk into any hospital and get one for free!!!
Lets fuck the 90% of people in this country that are happy with their health care so we can do the same here??????????
August 7 at 8:24am
Giles Styles
Giles Styles
1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America
August 7 at 8:26am
Paul Davidson
Paul Davidson
Also if 'heathcare in europe is far superior to ours' why does anyone with money come to the USA to be treated???
August 7 at 8:26am
Giles Styles
Giles Styles
90% of the people are happy with the healthcare here??? are you joking? i don't even think 10% of the population has health care.
August 7 at 8:27am
Giles Styles
Giles Styles
Paul - they come here because it's a capitalist system where you can PAY for great care. if you can't afford it, you are screwed. i'm glad you think that everyone with money matters and that basic health care isn't an inalienable right though. just for fun, i'll point out that most poor people are people of color. :)
August 7 at 8:29am
Paul Davidson
Paul Davidson
read again... if you have health care ...90% of you are happy with it..
There are less than 50 million without healthcare. Approx 15 are illegals & the rest is split between those that truly can't afford and those that choose not to buy it or are between jobs.
August 7 at 8:31am
Paul Davidson
Paul Davidson
Everyone with money DOES matter!!!! Rich people are great!!! They spend MONEY and give people JOBS!!!!
Did you ever get a job from a poor man?
August 7 at 8:36am
Giles Styles
Giles Styles
Right and rich people will still be able to pay for great care. This isn't about people that can afford it. This is about providing health care for everyone. Do you think Obama is going to remove the ability to pay for a world class surgeon?
August 7 at 8:37am
Paul Davidson
Paul Davidson
sorry, it's not the governments job to provide health care for anyone!!!!!!!!!!!
I need a new TV and a washer and dryer. Is it the governments job to provide those for me aswell??
August 7 at 8:45am
Frank C Deejay
Frank C Deejay
Part of this incompetent's appeal was his devout Christian Faith....now that he is in office he can't even decide on a Church??? Oh yeah he did have a church but it was lead by the Racist Jeremiah, so he back stabbed his own(racist) congregation because it was bad for his public image...as for literacy...he can read off a script but take his page away and hes a stuttering fool...this is a true testament to his deception...if all followers like you care only about the spoken word but not the meaninful action this country is in trouble...giles..you have got a serious "white guilt trip" and jump to minority causes like they are going out of style...I am a minority you are not...we see right through people like you..I can see it now..the white kid trying to be one of the homeys...you are not even relavent to them..comedy!!!
August 7 at 8:46am
Giles Styles
Giles Styles
Paul - there's a fundamental difference between you and me. I think it's in a country and government's interest to keep the population healthy. It is self serving and important in my opinion. Giving the population appliances isn't. I think keeping its citizens healthy is as important as keeping the air clean, keeping the roads paved, etc. Why do we have a public library? Should we only allow the rich to read?
August 7 at 8:55am
Frank C Deejay
Frank C Deejay
Hadn't the opportunity to read all of giles comment prior..you have a clouded sense of reality and jump on the race card as if you were one of us..you can never role play enough to understand what it is to have our skin color or last name...you can tat yourself up & get cornroles..do whatever you like to try to identify with us but it doesn't work...the best thing a white person can do is not entitle an already entitled community..minorities need to remember the past but live for the future...I have an offer for you..I visit some of the most poverished neighborhoods on a daily basis..I invite you to visit with me and see just how unmotivated these communities are..they now have an apologist in office to tell them even more how they can't do it themselves...how the gov. should do it for them...seriously I'll take you for a couple of days & you will see a 2nd generation of hopelessness...what these communities really need is a message of self reliance not pity...
August 7 at 8:59am
Paul Davidson
Paul Davidson
There is a difference, for sure! You hate people with money and want to take it from them and give it to those that don't. It's class warfare!
I would rather people were rewarded for their hard work and sacrifice. If you want to sit around watching Jerry Springer all day then guess what, thats the life you made for yourself. Don't come banging at my door asking me to pay for your shit!!!
August 7 at 8:59am
Giles Styles
Giles Styles
Paul - I grew up in Hancock Park and attended all private schools. I didn't graduate college, but still went on to find a job in IT where I make six figures annually. I also have great health care. I don't hate people with money. I have a brother who is a musician and he can't afford healthcare. I want him to have it. I want everyone to have health care. That doesn't mean I hate people with money. How do you jump to these silly conclusions?
August 7 at 9:02am
Giles Styles
Giles Styles
Frank - my last name is Steinberg. We are one of the most persecuted groups of all time. My grandparents escaped Poland during the war where my grandfather's entire family was slaughtered in camps. My dad grew up at 59th and Central and went to Fremont high. Nothing you said has any validity and nothing you say will convince me that people don't have the basic right to be healthy.
August 7 at 9:04am
Giles Styles
Giles Styles
I haven't said anything about any other social programs. I haven't mentioned welfare. The only thing I've been a proponent of is health care for all. Your fox news talking points don't apply to me, so you might want to proofread them before copy and pasting.
August 7 at 9:05am
Frank C Deejay
Frank C Deejay
Paul...it's hopeless with giles...while I was in college I had many encounters with many giles..he is set in his ways...it's true when they say.."liberalism is a mental disorder"...they are hypocrats that resent morality, judgement and most of all religious faith..funny thing is they have created their own distorted faith (Progressiveness)..it's prophets are Global Warming, Socialism, Race Entitlement, Sexual Preference Entitlement & Disposition of their own Country...their Messiah is "O"..they follow their practice as Christians follow Jesus...there is nothing you can tell him..he will either grow into conservatism or he will become more bitter & radical...
August 7 at 9:10am
Raymond Leon Roker
Raymond Leon Roker
Ultimately folks like Paul Davidson are OK with free enterprise even if it's manipulated and jury-rigged by corrupt corporations. They never have anything to say about an industry that routinely allows citizens to die or be unhealthy because it's better for profits. Just blame any legislator who's trying to fix it.

As for socialism, name ONE act of socialism being carved out by this president. And don't say health care, because that's not his creation. Medicare and other government healthcare (like for congress and the military) is already in place. So I guess the socialism is already part of what we do.

And for those who believe that private insurance is best, those companies will still exist. They're not going anywhere. They will still make obscene profits on the backs of patients and with the support of lobbyists and loopholes. Not to worry.

Paul, George, et al, your arguments are hollow. You have NO facts. Inexperienced cabinet? Show me that data. Socialism? Show me that too.
August 7 at 9:15am · Delete
Frank C Deejay
Frank C Deejay
Giles...talking points are exactly that...I am a MEXICAN MALE...don't care what neighborhood your parents are from...you haven't lived it...I have and I'm telling you...while Mexicans & minorities like me are trying to motivate our culture to care about themsleve's...whites like yourself are justifying & entitleing my people & making it difficult for us to find our own way instead of maintaining the handout mentality you preach...everyone talks the talk until it hits the fan...unfortunately you will have to face incredible tragedy to truely find your identity...it happened to me i.e. death, drugs, gangs, violence...real fear that shaped my direction...it's a direction you are fascinated by but never had to live & I don't wish it upon you...seriously giles the way of socialism will take away our freedoms more than benefit our welfare...
August 7 at 9:19am
Frank C Deejay
Frank C Deejay
Raymond....1 act of socialism for you "Nationlized Healthcare"
August 7 at 9:21am
Frank C Deejay
Frank C Deejay
Raymond....2 acts of socialism......"Nationlized Banking"
August 7 at 9:21am
Raymond Leon Roker
Raymond Leon Roker
Frank, there is no such thing as nationalized healthcare. It's a myth. And not part of the Democratic plan. You need to do your homework, sir.

Plus, it already exists in the form of 1) Medicare and 2) Uninsured folks still get treated legally and then we (taxpayers) cover it later.
August 7 at 9:22am · Delete
Frank C Deejay
Frank C Deejay
Raymond.....3 acts of socialism.....so called "Fairness Doctrine"...really a power grab of the stream of news & information as liberal talk radio cannot compete with conservative radio...
August 7 at 9:23am
Frank C Deejay
Frank C Deejay
Raymond...I can go all day brother....
August 7 at 9:24am
Frank C Deejay
Frank C Deejay
Raymond....and it doesn't work in it's infant stage....you force it on the country & it will be a catastophy....do your research and see how it has failed at the state level and you may educate yourself to the disaster it would create
August 7 at 9:26am
Raymond Leon Roker
Raymond Leon Roker
Frank, again, your talking points come from the right which has been in favor of socialism for a long time. Ever heard of corn subsidies? What about the Farm Bill? That's where the government pays you to grow shit. Sounds very USSR to me. Obama had nothing to do with that age-old institution.

Exactly what is the Fairness Doctrine. Is it a law? Please explain it. I'm not knowing.

As for banking, the first bailouts and TARP money happened under Geo Bush. As did the conditions to cause Obama to complete the work. So, according to your definition, Bush 2 was the socialist.
August 7 at 9:26am · Delete
Raymond Leon Roker
Raymond Leon Roker
We have welfare in this country and it is called corporate welfare. It's bigger in terms of dollars than anything we do for citizens. Please consider your focus on those institutions, the ones favored by Republicans. Tax loopholes, incentives, subsidies, and empowerment zones. All of that, sir, is welfare. NONE of it is Obama's.
August 7 at 9:29am · Delete
Frank C Deejay
Frank C Deejay
Raymond...subsidies don't show a return...you know this right?...What is ironic Reaymond is I remember when you where just a little shop off of Washington...sittin there with Jason Bentley & that other cool Asian cat(forgot his name) with a 5x6 booklet free of charge...then you put a price on your investment...you are the epitomy of a young entepenuer & capitalism...how you going to knock capitalism??? how many s-corps, llcs or copyrights do you have...how are you going to knock corporate America???...If you are really down with your cause why don't you distribute your mag for free??? Step up....
August 7 at 9:56am
Frank C Deejay
Frank C Deejay
Raymond...if their is no such thing as Nationalized Healthcare maybe someone should call the whitehouse and ask their press secretary to stop refering to it along with the pres. & liberal senate & liberal congress people
August 7 at 9:59am
Raymond Leon Roker
Raymond Leon Roker
Frank, thanks for the memories (his name was Stan), but, my brother, nowhere in my comments do i knock capitalism. And nowhere in all of my writings have I. I am a corporation, albeit an indie one. I am more critical than most of overregulation, taxes and other penalties of business.

I don't get your point on subsidies.
August 7 at 10:03am · Delete
Raymond Leon Roker
Raymond Leon Roker
Frank, I don't hear the term nationalized healthcare except from the right. While I don't think Obama has done a great job of selling this plan to America's insured—and that's the only folks that are complaining, the insured who don't have big worries—it's still not nationalized care. What it is is a nationalized safety net that does three things:

1) provides an affordable option for care without all the caveats of private insurance (pre existing condition denial, etc). This, in turn, makes it competition to private enterprise (think postal service vs Fedex). If you can't afford coverage, it provides you credits or support so that you can pay for it (welfare if you want to call it that).

2) It also covers the currently un/under-insured. The only place for these folks now is medicare, hospitals or taxpayers picking up the pieces.

3) It works to reduce overall cost of healthcare through better technology and infrastructure, as well as competition.
August 7 at 10:13am · Delete
Frank C Deejay
Frank C Deejay
Yeah...Stan...he was cool...I am proud of you my friend...& we both know you can't get the word out for free...I know you respect capitalism...it has given you the life & opportunites you have...As for subsidies...example...recycleing...the cost benefit of throwing away that plastic bottle and turning it into a styrofoam doesn't show a net gain...that cost is a negative loss...I understand there would be moutains of trash all over the streets without such recycling programs, but all I'm saying is sometime the supplement can only have a cosmetic effect and not a economic benefit...Love & Respect RLR...message me soon & we'll have a meal together(it's on you)...:)
August 7 at 10:13am
Raymond Leon Roker
Raymond Leon Roker
LOL, Frank, you know I have love for the underground and the old school heads. How about we have George buy us both a meal soon. Take care, sir.
August 7 at 10:15am · Delete
Frank C Deejay
Frank C Deejay
Raymond....Competition is the only form of motivation for better goods and services...They attempted a full statewide form of healthcare in Hawaii a short while back....even those insured jumped on the wagon the...the quality of care dropped dramatically & the system went bankrupt in a matter of months...seriously look into it...this failed model is actually part of the model being utilized in the 1000+ page document being pushed through the house without reading it or revising many of the costly errors...
August 7 at 10:19am
Frank C Deejay
Frank C Deejay
Raymond...the above script was not to get in the last word...Let's do that real soon....George can come along...
August 7 at 10:21am
Raymond Leon Roker
Raymond Leon Roker
Frank, I will check it out. But ultimately, I'm not afraid of an experiment given the alternative. At this point, we have a failing system. One that is rigged and allows people to die If you're rich or well-insured, you're ok. I'm for something that fixes that and saves lives as well as improves health.

If it costs a few bucks, fine. We can pull some troops out of Germany or South Korea for fucks sake. Or stop funding corn production which we don't need and harms the environment, animals and people.

If the government wants to have a backup for people to insure under, why not? You really haven't provided one good reason why we don't have a smoother running medicare type situation. A government funded insurance company. You, my well-insured friend, would be able to stay 1000 feet away from it. But why crap on the plan that can save other lives. Especially when you have yet to present an alternative.
August 7 at 10:25am · Delete
George Bennitez
George Bennitez
Raymond you have to much faith in the people who run the DMV, Post Office. You need to understand that Government does not run on a profit margin, If the Post Office cant compete with fed ex and it's loosing money they raise taxes to pay the slugs that work there and to keep the place afloat. Did you know that the POST OFFICE will report a loss of 7 BILLION dollars this year. it was in the news look it up they will be cutting their Saturday delivery services and a lot of those unemployable cubical workers will have to go on unemployed because they where unemployable by private sector to begin with. Back to the subject the post office would have files for BK if it wasn't carried with taxpayer money. So you cannot EVER make any argument, no matter how mush you gloss it over the details and garnish it with cherries and wiped cream, The government should NEVER have control over health care. The government should make policy that will that will regulate medical costs on a bi partisan..
August 7 at 10:58am
George Bennitez
George Bennitez
basis and let the FREE MARKETS dictate the price. Why wont you face the fact that there are a lot of people who are sucking up on the proverbial progressive policy tit and have no motivation to get off of it. Why in the would you what the government to be in charge of Banking, Medical Care, Manufacturing, Media ect.. ect..??
August 7 at 11:04am
Raymond Leon Roker
Raymond Leon Roker
Geo, well aware of the USPS losses. And all the other complaints about gov institutions. However, they seem to get medical care right for soldiers and senators. And they do military right. And how about the secret service. The National Guard. There are countless government agencies that work pretty well.

So, what is your bi-partisan plan to radically reduce healthcare costs for citizens, while ensuring that pre-existing conditions and health loopholes don't leave people out. Exactly what is this genius plan?
August 7 at 11:08am · Delete
George Bennitez
George Bennitez
THE END.. and sure ill buy you both tacos..
August 7 at 11:11am
Raymond Leon Roker
Raymond Leon Roker
George, the folks I'm most concerned about being at the tit of government are corporations. The ones supported by Repubs and Dems alike. The corporate welfare state is far more insidious than any group of citizens on the dole. And while I am the first to berate those sitting on unemployment or other assistance when they can do for themselves, I amnot forgetting that my tax dollars prop of large corporations far more, and for no good reason, other than to make them and their CEOs and shareholders wealthier.
August 7 at 11:11am · Delete
George Bennitez
George Bennitez
I understand that, but you also have to understand that large corporations don't pay taxes. HOW?? you ask is that possible you ask?. Because when the governments raises their taxes, what do they do? they pass it on tho the consumer so you and me pay their taxes. or they lay off people, or they move out of state, or the go over seas and because that is a fact of life in a capitalist society you have to understand Obama realizes this very fact and does it anyway to pay for his government expansion and pretends that he is only raising taxes on the rich. Im I right? See that's what upsets me about the constant hammering at big business and wanting to raise their taxes to save the poor, Ignorance of the final outcome affects you and me when we need to buy a product or service. Government needs to stop manipulation price and only regulate quality to the consumer..
August 7 at 11:54am
George Bennitez
George Bennitez
If I had to guess I would think that government run services like the post office are more wasteful then big corporations. Look at the post office 100 billion in the whole over a period of time. I see that as money lost. As for giving tax incentives to big business at least they turn a profit and create jobs. ( and Im not talking about AIG, Chrysler, Gm ect.. ) I wanted them to gom down and start from scratch with out any handouts.
August 7 at 12:01pm
Paul Davidson
Paul Davidson
WOW!! I really missed a good one when I left today!
Raymond, don't be so presumptuous about what folks like me believe when you can just ask.....
The current health care system is flawed. OK. It doesn't need to be completely destroyed and replaced with a proven inferior system that makes people feel all warm & fuzzy but only offers rationing, no choice and cost benefit analysis of medical procedures. i.e. is it worth spending X amount of $ to keep you alive...
I'm always puzzled, also, when anyone disagrees with 'O' then you must love Bush??? I absolutley agree with you about the farm subsidies, also his prescription drug plan and others aswell. He spent more money than any other president before him and for what??
I disagree with the policies and the actions, regardless of the people doing it. I don't care if they are left or right... if it's wrong it's WRONG!!
continued.......
August 7 at 5:34pm
Raymond Leon Roker
Raymond Leon Roker
Paul, not sure where you think I presumed anything. I was pretty specifically responsive to comments here.

And I never said you liked Bush. Though I referenced him where necessary to show possible hypocrisy.

Cost benefit analysis was INVENTED by the insurance companies that rule the day now. If folks have money, they will be perfectly able to design the most luxurious over the top benefit plan they want. "Obamacare" won't even touch that. But for those who can't afford such luxuries, meaningful science and best practices will be the barometer.

The Obama health plan is to provide an alternative. So that those who are or will fall through the current cracks (which are absolutely massive) have a safety net. It's far, far from socialized medicine (not that this would be bad for this great country). But this is not such.

You guys have a string of hollow arguments and sweeping scary statements. I say this with love, guys, but seriously, outline some facts any day now.
August 7 at 5:41pm · Delete
Paul Davidson
Paul Davidson
It's a rare occurance when you can find anyone in this country that thinks that way. Most people only think it's wrong when the 'other' guy does it but are totally fine when it's 'our' guy doing it.
Interesting how you think National Healthcare is a 'myth'?? Go to England, it's called The National Healthcare System (NHS). It fucking sucks!!!
You are worried about the US health system and say we don't mind that people are routinely dieing to make profits.
Death rates are much higher than here for a braod spectrum of treatable and untreatable diseases. Thats a fact. Why? because it becomes a matter of whats cost effective & when you get to a certain age you the benefit isn't worth the cost. Are you aware of the "End Of Life" meetings in 'O's plan that people over 65 will have to have. Basically being asked to choose between getting life extending care or just calling it quits??? Thats fucked up!
cont.....
August 7 at 5:43pm
Raymond Leon Roker
Raymond Leon Roker
Paul, I meant that "national healthcare" is a myth in the states. It doesn't exist and isn't being proposed by Obama. So let's stop misclassifying it.

I guess you don't know anybody in the states who has had an insurance company let them die from a treatable disease because the cures are "experimental" or maybe they didn't insure them because they had a "pre-existing condition" or maybe their insurance simply "ran out." That's what these companies you seem to want to see have a monopoly do. I want an alternative.

And unless you have a way to force fixes into that existing system (listening. crickets), then what is your argument besides putting $ or ??? after sentences?

BTW, I have never once touted the UK system as any example. My arguments are domestically based.

And don't take my sharpness as rudeness or dismissal. If I was being dismissive, I wouldn't write.
August 7 at 5:48pm · Delete
Paul Davidson
Paul Davidson
Are you aware that there is a part of his bill that says if you don't already have private insurance before/if his plan goes into effect you will not be allowed to get private and will have to use the government run plan.

One thing no one has mentioned and I think is the 50ft gorilla in the room is Tort reform. This is one of the main reasons why the current system is so messed up and becomes to expensive for people to afford.
Frivolous law suits need to be stopped! Loser pays needs to be instated to stop all this bullshit.
Doctors administering a tylenol for a sore foot can be sued a year later when the same person has a heart attack. Insurance rates go through the roof and that doctor will spend his whole career trying to fight it and then will begin to think twice about how to treat a patient for fear of repercussions.
Stop that and insurance costs go down for everyone.
August 7 at 5:50pm
Raymond Leon Roker
Raymond Leon Roker
>>Are you aware that there is a part of his bill that says if you don't already have private insurance before/if his plan goes into effect you will not be allowed to get private and will have to use the government run plan.<< class="text_exposed_show" style="display: inline; ">

Balance, my friend. Let's seek balance. Ohm.
August 7 at 5:54pm · Delete
Paul Davidson
Paul Davidson
You're kind of right about 'O' not proposing NHS, he keeps shying away from saying it because he knows it's unpopular but the bill is exactly that. He also said publicly he's a proponant of the single payer system i.e. NHS! (only 1 exclamation as I seem to be using to many...;)
The government can't be allowed to be a competitor in the game. They are the referees, you can't let the people who make up the rules play the game!
As George sais they have no incentive to meet any kinds of productivity, quality of care or service. Private companies need to meet these standards or suffer going out of business. I know thats an evil concept, trying to turna proffit but thats the way the world works.
Again, post office, Amtrak, etc...all failures of massive proprtions, all lose money but continue to do business. No heads roll for lack of performance. No accountability. Guaranteed government pensions for life.
Government doesn't know how to run a business and nor should they.
August 7 at 6:09pm
Paul Davidson
Paul Davidson
need to get in sync here, i'm already writing about one thing while you're onto the next one....
Just read back a bit and wanted to also note about the Fairness Doctrine that Frank wrote about.... did you look into it?
Not really to do with Health but very scary propostion pushed hard by Chuckie Schumer, Pelosi & Reid. Well... scary to those that arent left wing idealogues.....
August 7 at 6:13pm
Paul Davidson
Paul Davidson
Here you go Raymond..... you will NOT be able to get private once 'O' care is implemented.....
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=104161
August 7 at 6:19pm
Paul Davidson
Paul Davidson
oh yeah, i'm in for taco's too! When we going? ????? ???? ;)
August 7 at 6:21pm
Raymond Leon Roker
Raymond Leon Roker
Pelosi and Reid are worthless hacks. But I'll look into that doctrine.

As for your arguments against reform: I'd love to hear why an alternative is so distasteful to you. If it becomes an Amtrak, trust that it will be dismantled by the next administration.

BUT, how come congress and the military LOVE their government healthcare? Just tell me why that works for them and won't work for Americans? Answer that one simple question.

Now, I'm off to play. It's Friday and some of don't have kids ;)
August 7 at 6:21pm · Delete
Paul Davidson
Paul Davidson
I'll answer that with a question.
How many people in the military & congress?
Aternatives are needed, i have no problem with that, just not this one.
And... the bigger picture. 'O's plan is not about covering the small amount of uninsured, it's about taking over the large amount of the countries economy. Socialism!

Enjoy your weekend mate!!
August 7 at 6:26pm
George Bennitez
George Bennitez
the big fear down the line ramond is that private instrance plans and employers will not me able to compete on costs so it is estimated that many employers will drop the private plan and switch to the government plan and the next natural progression will be many insurance companies will gobout of business and the few ones that will survive will cater to the rich! THUS this plan if it's passed will be a national plan and everybody will have to suffer because it's going to be thee gigantic scocialist tit the middle class, minorities and the poor will have to suck on. REMEBER if Obama and his puppet masters get their way they will dictate what medication, treatment, services, procedures Ect Ect will cost and will drive private plans out of business so I have to ask you.. you font really see that coming down the line??
August 8 at 12:21am
George Bennitez
George Bennitez
Get some kids Raymond you'll see things diferently.. ;0)
August 8 at 12:25am
Raymond Leon Roker
Raymond Leon Roker
George, you support businesses being required to provide health insurance for employees? Can't see that jibing with your conservative stance.

So who cares what insurance employers provide? Shouldn't it be a private purchase by individuals? I think so.

Also, I don't think history supports that when the government comes in, competition dies. I think it's the opposite. Post Office vs UPS. Public school vs charters. City water vs. Arrowhead. What makes you think these companies making record profits will suddenly go away? Can you find one actual economist that thinks that. Glenn Beck doesn't count.

As for government deciding what procedures you qualify for--this is such a hollow argument. That happens today with insurance companies. All of them.
August 8 at 12:33pm · Delete
Paul Davidson
Paul Davidson
Raymond, ...."Also, I don't think history supports that when the government comes in, competition dies."
History has absolutely shown this throughout the world when it comes to healthcare. There's no debate on that.
'O's Health bill mandates that private insurance will die.
you didn't see the link I posted? Page 16 of the health bill...
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=104161
Also, you are totally right about insurance being a private choice by individuals. The reason employers offer plans is to gain group discounts. Buying in bulk = less cost.
This is one area that the current system SHOULD be changed. Why only employers can participate in this?
How come me and you can't start our own group that chooses our own care and ivite our friends so we can benefit from a group discount?
August 8 at 1:13pm
George Bennitez
George Bennitez
raymond I don't think you've really taken the time to research both sides of the issue. Your coments seem like personal opinions. As far as your USPS v. UPS comparison the postal service has horrible service the employees are rude and ghetto and can't even speak the language plain and simple it runs at a loss every year and I don't have confidence in there deliveries SO as a business man I rather use UPS and pay a little extra. I don't have to use USPS but under obamas plan I would have to insure every employee and I'd I didn't I would pay a tax so since I'm bring forced to insure everyone I'll have to go with the cheapest insurance outhere and that would be obamacare witch would be filled ruth postoffice employees and also running at a loss. The problem is not the quality of care it's the cost and making it accessble to everyone but I'm not willing to let the government run it.
August 8 at 3:40pm
George Bennitez
George Bennitez
raymond I don't think you've really taken the time to research both sides of the issue. Your coments seem like personal opinions. As far as your USPS v. UPS comparison the postal service has horrible service the employees are rude and ghetto and can't even speak the language plain and simple it runs at a loss every year and I don't have confidence in there deliveries SO as a business man I rather use UPS and pay a little extra. I don't have to use USPS but under obamas plan I would have to insure every employee and I'd I didn't I would pay a tax so since I'm bring forced to insure everyone I'll have to go with the cheapest insurance outhere and that would be obamacare witch would be filled ruth postoffice employees and also running at a loss. The problem is not the quality of care it's the cost and making it accessble to everyone but I'm not willing to let the government run it.
August 8 at 3:40pm
Paul Davidson
Paul Davidson
"I don't have to use USPS but under obamas plan I would have to insure every employee and I'd if I didn't I would pay a tax so since I'm being forced to insure everyone I'll have to go with the cheapest insurance outhere and that would be obamacare"

EXACTLY!!!!! Insure your employees or be taxed!
No choice at all, 'O' Care or suffer a greater tax burden. Well, either way it's a greater tax burden, pick your poison.
Thats what happens when you let the referee also be a contestant in the game. Pure corruption!
August 8 at 4:45pm
Raymond Leon Roker
Raymond Leon Roker
George, huh? My point about USPS vs UPS is meant to say that these are examples where government is challenged by private sector successfully. So let the free market provide an alternative to public health care. That is what I'm saying will happen.

I'm not a fan of businesses having to provide insurance at all. I depart with any plan that forces this--but I could live with it. As it stands now, do you think businesses make decisions on healthcare based on what's best for the employees? They base it on what they need to retain them. And if they can get away with spending less money and achieving the same result, then they will. So what?

If they are companies that were going to always opt for the least expensive option period, then I don't see how the public option changes anything. It just means that the net net will be that every employee gets some sort of insurance. The elite companies can still opt for luxury private plans if they wish.

continued...
August 8 at 6:29pm · Delete
Raymond Leon Roker
Raymond Leon Roker
I hope you guys realize that ALL employers are already required to have things like worker's comp and pay into unemployment. So there is already a forced insurance by employers.

Exactly which companies are you afraid for? The large corporations that won't insure workers? Name one. There aren't any today. All large companies provide some level of medical insurance.

The smaller companies (under 50 ppl) will probably be exempt from being forced to provide coverage, just like they escape family medical leave act and many other Dept of Labor laws.

Your argument is one of principle, but with no sense of real impact. Or no examples provided.
August 8 at 6:33pm · Delete
George Bennitez
George Bennitez
At the end of the day I don't think its going to go through they will need to go back into the drawing board and restructure something that we can all afford with out government control. we do need some king of reform on fraud, price gouging by providers and some tort reform to keep the ambulance chasers in check. We need the market to compete for ...Read More
August 9 at 5:24pm
George Bennitez
George Bennitez
They want to take over and they need large bureaucracy to stay alive and buy other politicians Obama is just returning a favor because they put him in office..
August 9 at 5:25pm
Raymond Leon Roker
Raymond Leon Roker
George, you are a shining contradiction in logic. So you're saying that both the labor unions and the corporate owners both want Obamacare. The corporate owners because they will get cheaper insurance than private. And the labor unions for I'm not sure what reason. That would be interesting, them both for the same thing. My god, Obamacare really must make sense then. Thanks.

And once again, the US proposal is NOT ht British system. Single Payer is different than a government option.

>>We need the market to compete for our business and regulate itself accordingly<<

Bro, that's where we are now. And it's not working.
August 9 at 6:01pm · Delete
Paul Davidson
Paul Davidson
"Single Payer is different than a government option."

'O' wants single payer, in his own words. This government option is the first step to get to those ends.
Pricing out private companies and denying people from purchasing coverage from private companies (page 16 of the health bill) is the means to get them there.
August 9 at 7:01pm
Raymond Leon Roker
Raymond Leon Roker
Paul, your arguments are all falling apart:

1) O wants single payer - so basically all your fears are predicated on this slippery slope. The examples about the UK, etc are not applicable except for down the imaginary line. But Obamacare as it's outlined is not government health care or single payer. Got it.

2) The federal gov, which you all say can't do anything right (USPS, Amtrak, etc) is going to be so competitive as to drive the insanely profitable insurance companies out of business. Exactly how will they do this? Making an insurance product so attractive to a majority of Americans that they will opt for it instead of the private ones? Based on what? Great quality and a lower price? OMG, the sky is falling.

3) Page 16 of the insurance proposal (which one, there are numerous) says you will not be able to secure private health insurance--which goes counter to all that has been said by the Dems up until now. Please share the link to page 16 or the exact wording. I don't buy it.
August 9 at 7:13pm · Delete
George Bennitez
George Bennitez
to you number 2) it doesn't work that way and it wont. As Ive said many times the government plan will run at a loss and employers in order to survive will opt to use the government plan. You know employers just want profit so they'll dump their private insurer and put all their employees on the cheap, plan while they stay with a better private plan. its not about better service its about the bottom line for the employer. The employer will be the harvester of his plan.
August 9 at 7:32pm
Paul Davidson
Paul Davidson
1)I'm puzzled how you seem to know everything 'O' thinks & wants to do when he's in agreement with your position but you summarily dismiss him when he states in his own words his position which you don't agree with. Imaginary?? He said it, not us. We're just acknowledging his words. You should too.
2)By offering it for FREEEEEEEE (as Larry Miller would say).
Have you heard of Romney Care? This free healthcare has been tried (by a Republican) in Massachusetts. It has failed miserably and forced the state into massive tax increases. Imagine this nationwide :( Look into it.....
3)Which healthcare bill?? The 1000+ page being pushed through Congress... you know, the one that no one wants to read before they vote on it. Shameful!
I already sent a link to you 3 times, try Google.

It would be a wonderful thing to offer the nation full & free healthcare but it's a dream that will hurt more than it will help. The road to hell is paved with good intentions!
August 9 at 7:36pm
Paul Davidson
Paul Davidson
nite guys! oh aswell, with all this spirited debate we've lost sight of something real important........
wasn't George supposed to be taking us out for a meal??
August 9 at 7:38pm
Raymond Leon Roker
Raymond Leon Roker
George, you believe in free enterprise and corporations being able to go with what's best for their company, right? So why does them possibly picking the government plan for workers not part of that? Suddenly you're for protectionism? And not allowing these corporations to do what's best for their bottom line?

That's telling
August 9 at 7:40pm · Delete
Raymond Leon Roker
Raymond Leon Roker
1) Paul, we're in agreement: Obama is on record as liking/maybe wanting single payer. BUT, the proposed plans are NOT single payer. That's my point. So your fears are largely based on what you think we will slip towards down the line. That's my point. Let's deal with the now as the old slippery slope argument is age-old and weak.

2) HUH? I was ... Read Moreasking about how Obamacare will compete with other private plans that corporations (say Xerox) want to provide to workers. It won'y be free for corporations to buy. It will presumably be less expensive and worse (according to you). So why would corporations pick it? You say governments can't do shit but they can somehow compete on the open market good enough to send corporations flocking to their solutions for workers? You guys can't have this argument both ways.

3) You have said this three times, but I have not seen a link from you stating what you're claiming. Seriously, if it's that outrageous, couldn't you simply quote w/ a li
August 9 at 7:49pm · Delete
Raymond Leon Roker
Raymond Leon Roker
3) link or re-post for us all to read
August 9 at 7:50pm · Delete
Raymond Leon Roker
Raymond Leon Roker
Is this the 90th comment?

I thought of a few government agencies that seem to work fine—and of which I rarely hear the Right/Republicans complaining about or dismissing as wasteful and low quality:

Highway Patrol
Capitol Police
Secret Service
Coast Guard
National Guard
Local Police and Fire Depts
FBI

So, the government can do all of this correct, but they can't administer an insurance program?

Hmm...
August 10 at 11:06am · Delete
Raymond Leon Roker
Raymond Leon Roker
Also, Paul, I found your link. That doesn't mandate the death of private insurance. That's a silly and inaccurate interpretation. What it does is insist that all people be insured. So, are you now concerned about the people who don't have insurance being forced to carry it? How can you express concern for these millions when you could give a damn about them being insured today? Too convenient an ally me thinks.

So, exactly what is wrong with the page 16 provision? Specifically what does it do that troubles you?
August 10 at 11:09am · Delete
Paul Davidson
Paul Davidson
That list of Gov agencies is bogus, they are not selling a product. They are there under the constitution to protect us. There is no provision for healthcare.

As far as this imaginary scary myth that Obama is looking to force us into a single payer system...
http://townhall.com/blog/g/d731df20-e06d-4352-a7f7-39e327fd35a2
I think you are the only left that doesn't believe it Raymond..

http://www.realhonestthinking.com/2009/07/house-health-care-bill-first-100-pages.html

How can you be so presumtuous about what I give a damn about? Just because I don't believe in your forced government view means I don't care whether people can get healthcare or not??? Thats pretty rude.

Everyone should be able to buy their own and with less gov interference (with the ins co.s and over taxing the population) this might be able to happen. Unfortunately with a socialist running the country his aim his to control the population not allow them to be free to make their own choices.
Tue at 5:08pm
Paul Davidson
Paul Davidson
Bill Mahar says, "we are a stupid country". Most of the Liberal Elites believe this to be true and thus the reason they know better how to spend OUR money. They somehow think it's THEIR money though and act like they are doing us a favor by handing it back to us in dribs and drabs when they see fit.
Tue at 5:11pm
Raymond Leon Roker
Raymond Leon Roker
"Everyone should be able to buy their own and with less gov interference"

Bro, they can't. It's that simple. How do you see that changing? What is your solution.

You all are a touchy bunch. Lots of hurt feelings in this thread. Sorry for offending you. I remain ardent and committed to a healthy and legitimate debate. You espousing that he's part of a socialist party and that he secretly wants to do things that are not on the table isn't a healthy debate. It's hype and fantasy.

Your tag of Obama being a socialist is insulting to me, a person who voted for him and supports him. It's cheap and unsubstantiated claim. He has done nothing that Bush didn't do in terms of bailouts.

So, since there is no convincing you, and your arguments are without any weight to sway me, what is your solution? Give me a few bullet points as to what you would do to solve the health care situation.

I'm all ears.
Tue at 5:28pm · Delete
Paul Davidson
Paul Davidson
"he secretly wants to do things that are not on the table isn't a healthy debate. It's hype and fantasy"

Again, you must be the only one who still belives this. 'O' says it, his own party say they want it, his supporters say they want it... but it's all a fantasy?

I've given quite a few reasons, solutions & links but i'm beginning to think you must have skipped most posts as you keep asking for me to post them again. I don't have time to hold your hand through it.

I'm not touchy but when you keep presuming that I want everyone without healthcare to just go away & die it gets a bit annoying.
Thats really a hallmark of the left though, if you don't believe what we say then you're intolerant and you're a bigot and you want people to die etc...

Again, I do agree tho that Bush spent a shit load of money he shouldn't have but two wrongs don't make a right.
If you want to compare the two........
http://blog.heritage.org/2009/03/24/bush-deficit-vs-obama-deficit-in-pictures/
Tue at 5:44pm
Raymond Leon Roker
Raymond Leon Roker
Paul,

I asked you twice, what's your solution? And also noted that we agree to disagree about Obama's record. I'm not as left as you also assume, I'm a business owner who has myriad opinions on taxation, regulations, etc, etc.

I'm not going to read a Heritage report and say, OK, you're right. That's clearly a right wing/conservative org.

And I wasn't comparing Obama to Bush, what I was saying is that I don't hear you saying Bush was a socialist. So, what has Obama done in his 200 days that makes him a socialist, considering that they're simply continuations of Bush enacted bailouts.

So, again, let's get your thoughts on health care. Not just what is unworkable, socialist and nation-ruining by Obama--but what will work? What will solve the nation's health care situation. Notice, I didn't even call it a crisis ;)
Tue at 6:12pm · Delete
Raymond Leon Roker
Raymond Leon Roker
"skipped most posts"

I've read all of the posts. But I don't feel the need to read conservative blog entries from groups clearly hostile to Obama.

But what I have not gotten in ANY of your side's posts above is an alternative solution.

That's what I find most humorous about all of this. The absolute lack of solutions from the right. And, along with it, the grandiose misinformation and misscharacterization of what's actually on the table from Obama. Not what's presumed or feared, but what's actually being proposed.
Tue at 6:15pm · Delete
Paul Davidson
Paul Davidson
reports will be from cons. sources as mainstream will not do anything to damage their investment - Obama .
I clearly said Tort reform. The biggest problem to the medical problem as it stands. Sort that out first.
The whole healthcare problem is bigger than just healthcare. it goes into the whole role of government and taxation. That is another massive debate of which we could go on forever.
I believe in smaller gov with less taxes accross the board. History has shown higher taxes always decrease revenue and increase unemployment. The reverse has never been true. Those dastardly evil rich people spend and invest money creating more jobs. The less money they have the less to invest. Hense I believe more employment and more money in the hands of the people will enable more options to buy private with a safety net for the poorest. (Private not as it stands today but after tort reform and the ability to buy accross states which would force competition like most other private business).
Tue at 7:20pm
Raymond Leon Roker
Raymond Leon Roker
Paul, OK, so I have you correct, this is your plan to address the issues of health care:

1) Tort reform--basically, make it tougher to sue doctors, I assume. And therefore, costs come down for all.

2) Lower taxes so that a) wages go higher and b) people in general have less taxes to contend with. And, I presume, now there will be more money to spend on health care premiums?

3) Ability to purchase insurance across state lines which increases competition, driving the price down.

This is your 3-point plan for solving this situation. Please let me know what I missed.
Tue at 7:24pm · Delete
Paul Davidson
Paul Davidson
Listen mate you can marginalise it all you want. I'm not paid the big bucks to come up with ideas, I have a business to run & a family to support.
Frivolous law suits are one of the main things that drive up health care costs and prevents access to newer and alternative care. Health care premiums go down = more people can afford to buy. I wrote a point (somewhere up there) about enabling groups of people to be able to get together to buy in bulk. Like anything you buy in bulk the price goes down. You never responded to that.
You don't think that lowering the tax burden on the people grows the economy? What would you do if your taxes were dramatically reduced each year? Hide it under your matress or expnad your business, employ more people, rent more space, buy shit that has to be manufactured, buy medical insurance?
what a concept.
Tue at 8:46pm
Raymond Leon Roker
Raymond Leon Roker
Paul, I only asked you to help me get clear on what you were proposing. Now you're telling me you're not paid the big bucks. Yet you're so very informed on Obama being a socialist and his doomsday plan for America. Convenient.

So, any Conservative plans out there that you like? Not just ideas, but fully vetted plans? Please send links.

As for your theories:

1) You have a business. Do you hire more people when your taxes are lower? Really? Or do you just pocket more profit? Bush gave the rich/business owners great tax breaks and drive us from a surpluss to a deficit in a few short years. And we're still digging out. Yet, at the same time, corporate America hired less people and outsourced as much as they could. And made record profits. And now look at the economy on Bush's watch. Shitty enough to have his policies and party drummed out of office.

2)
Enabling people to buy insurance in bulk. OK, so who has this plan and has it ever worked? Do you really think the insurance companies
Tue at 11:25pm · Delete
Raymond Leon Roker
Raymond Leon Roker
are going to allow some consumer groups to get all creative and buy in bulk, across state lines and cut into their billion dollar profits. If you believe that, more power to you.

Seriously, man, this isn't a debate as much as it's you throwing as many right wing beliefs against the wall in hopes that they stick. That's all fine and good, and they're philosophical debates to be had, but let's deal with what's on the table and the facts. That seems to be eluding this debate.
Tue at 11:29pm · Delete
Paul Davidson
Paul Davidson
??? I'm not paid to create policy for this nation so that means I can't be informed or have an opinion ???
I'm proud that I take the time to become informed, is that a problem for you?
Most people who support Obama only know the last bumper sticker they read. I constsantly hear people say 'I like what 'O' has done so far', I ask them 'so what exactly has he done that you like, just 1 thing.'
I never get an answer, just lots of ummm, ahh.... he's better than Bush. Sound familiar?

Anyone who doesn't buy into your theories is right wing? ha!

You want to deal with whats on the table yet you have no facts, only theories on how you would like it to be. When have you pointed to something to back up what you are saying?

I give you link after link of info yet you have no time as it's not from a left wing source. When will a left wing source give you any info other than what 'O's dog ate for breakfast and how cute his wifes shoes are and that the sun shines out of his asshole?
Wed at 7:26am
Raymond Leon Roker
Raymond Leon Roker
"So, any Conservative plans out there that you like? Not just ideas, but fully vetted plans? Please send links."

Crickets.

Paul, you're ridiculous. And I'm guessing you are beginning to see this yourself. I bullet point your theories and ask you to back them up--even just clarify them--and you just toss out a few more Obama insults.

I asked you very specific questions about business practice, tax theory and purchasing insurance and you simply ignore them (that's a trend with you). At least I have been thorough with your posts and go line by line to address them.

here's your homework, sir.

1) Refer to one solid health care reform plan your support.
Wed at 9:11am · Delete
Paul Davidson
Paul Davidson
Again with the personal attacks? I'm ridiculous because I don't believe in your speculative theories?

When in the last post did I insult Obama one time? I referenced real life experiences I have had with supporters of his and noted how the mainstream media do nothing but complement his every waking moment.
How is this an Obama insult?
Well, it's not.... but, directly out of the left wing playbook... distract from the issue and accuse them of hate, insults, bigotry etc....

Do you really think i'm going to write an essay in little FB boxes to prove to you what the consequencies of a NHS are? Again, i've linked many sources to facts and stats but you would never take notice as they don't come from sympathetic sources. This, to you, means they should be dismissed.

What is the model that you are getting your succesful data from about this current health plan?...
Infact i'm not sure you know anything about this health bill other than Obama's name's on it.
Wed at 4:48pm
Paul Davidson
Paul Davidson
Is there a solid health care reform plan out there? If the answer is no, not at this moment then we should just barrel ahead with this shitty one anyway, because what??? All the paper & ink in the world ran out and no-one will ever be able to write another.

I pointed you to look at Romney care in Mass. Did you look? You keep asking me for examples, there's a perfect one! Google is your friend!

It makes no difference if there is or isn't another "solid" plan out there. This current one proves that as it's the furthest thing from "solid" as you can get. It's parts of other tried and failed propositions all pasted together with the hopes of ramming it through before anyone could take notice and do something about it.
Thankfully people were taking notice and made it clear that this mess wasn't going to happen without a thorough vetting of the bill, you know, the one which no politician read. Does that bother you at all?
Wed at 4:57pm
Paul Davidson
Paul Davidson
Ok, heres your homework..
tell me everything about this current bill that proves this will create only a safety net for the poor and will ensure private insurance will still be available for anyone that wants it with no penalty or punishment through extra taxation.
AND...That the government will not institute rationing based on age and cost/benefit.
AND... that it will not lead to a single payer system as projected and endorsed by Obama....
Wed at 5:02pm
Raymond Leon Roker
Raymond Leon Roker
Paul,

Wow, you spent three boxes not providing anything but animated rhetoric. LOL.

I asked for an alternative plan from your side and I got crickets. As usual. And instead, you point to the Romney plan as another example of what Obama's plan won't work. Huh?

So, with all of your excuses and red herrings, your side has no plan. You just have defensive posturing and attacks. Cool.

As for my homework, I simply point to the president's plan. While not perfect, I support most of it, as I understand it. And, more importantly, I trust that we'll get something better than what we have today. I don't expect miracles.

Real quick on rationing, that already happens daily, by insurance companies. And as my friend recently said, I'd rather have my elected officials helping to make those calls than some for profit corporation. It is a disingenuous argument to play the cost/benefit card. That's part of every day life, from insurance to air travel. Don't act purposely naive.
Wed at 6:36pm · Delete
Raymond Leon Roker
Raymond Leon Roker
As to leading to single payer, that's not on the table. If the country and the elected government wants this, it may eventually come. That doesn't scare me. But today and in the near term, it is simply not even an option. So why keep coming back to it? Because of your irrational fear of it... in the future... eventually? I can't have that debate with you. I'm in 2009.

But there is really no point in telling you more about this bill. You are against it both in spirit and to its core. And against Obama. On the other hand, I remain open to your side's points, so long as they're not just right wing talking points about government philosophy. Let's talk facts and actual real provisions of this proposed reform. Again, I'm all ears.
Wed at 6:40pm · Delete